Talk:Economic system
Why not a "Real" world economy? While I understand how a closed economy wouldn't work, I dont understand why a real world economy couldn't eventually be made to work through trial and experience. In such a world, there are obviously some things which are closed, such as the number of actual items that currently exist in the world. There are also things which are renewable such as wood, flora and fauna. For all intention purposes, resources such as metals and ores could also be considered renewable (possibly exhausting only when it suits the campaign to do so). These resources would be naturally extracted and converted either by NPC crafters or PC crafters, the items placed in stores and naturally carried out into the world by adventurers. Of course making this realistic would require "simulators" that take items from stores and place them into the world and then carry them back again so that things cycle and loot is established by what goes out into the world. PCs obviously influence this system with the items they find and bring back as well as those they purchase and take out. The main detractor that has been mentioned is not being able to properly estimate the amount of resources or the number of items that would be required based on the number of players, but I feel that this could not only be found through experience, but could also be adjusted during gameplay by monitoring various levels of resources and increasing them, the production of items or the degree to which they are carried out into the world. Any kind of system will have natural balances which can be simulated if given enough time and a proper realistic view of economy. Enigmatic 07:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC) :I'm not against using market economy, or what you call "real" economy in the economic system, per se. As you saw in the article the goals of manageing the economic system are: Monetary Policy, Market Structure and Industrial Organization. For now I have only described the Monetary Policy. In the next two I am going to propose and discuss system of player-based and -run economy (and crafting). A "market economy" with prices decided by humans behind their characters, not by an algorithm. :The argument is not made against having controll over the resources, it is made against the resources being in a closed system. The Entire faucet/drain description is made to inform about the need of controlling those. There even is a suggestion for timed resource appearances, as one solution to the problem. :It would have been interesting to know more about tests done with closed economy. As for now, the only one to my knowledge to have ever tried it is the Ultima Online, and they only did it for one year, or so. :I have to disagree with the last sentence. While it is theoretically possible that given time, we will get balance, and while also it is important to have a proper realistic view of economy (which is why the article is being written), there have not been (at least to my knowledge) an MMO with an actually simulated market economy that hasn't resulted in hyperinflation or deflation. And we are not in the business of making simulators - the goal is not to simulate a perfect market economy, the goal is to support a "fun" business game of trading and crafting, which involves selling and buying of goods and services between the players, without the amount of money, items and resources getting out of hand. :Please stay for the updates of this article. A lot of your questiosn will get answered, and we'll get a better base for the discussion. Memengwa 18:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC) ::I dont think it is possible to discuss any kind of economic system without including both systems to do with loot and treasure. The whole point of having the market in the first place is to supply adventurers to go out into the world so that they can seek more or better of the same thing they purchased (excluding consumables of course which are used in the process of gaining them). There is not even any point in having a market or economy if loot is randomly generated. In all cases I have seen with randomly generated loot, the end result is always going to be monty haul. What true value is there in an item if people can "fluke" it on a random roll? ::This then means that loot cannot be done in such a way that is creates items, and it must be part of the system that produces it. Thus we get a natural cycle and a "system" which can be modelled: ::* Every item had to be constructed at some point (either NPC or crafting PC) ::* Every item was either placed into a shop or sold directly to adventurers (Customers being either PC's or NPC's) ::* Adventurers then take these items with them when exploring the world ::** Consumables are used during the process of exploration (arrows, potions, scrolls ::** Items are left in the world when adventurers die (to become "loot") ::** Loot is taken from the world ::* Loot is then sold to shops (Rince and repeat) ::The creation and destruction of these items falls into some very specific categories: ::* Why create items ::** Consumables which are always needed to support any number of adventurers ::** Items to be used by new characters that are entering the world (Low level items) ::** Items used by existing characters as they go up in levels (Some specific to class/level) ::** Items replacing those items which have been destroyed (see below) ::* Why items are destroyed ::** Items have limited uses and are destroyed naturally through use ::** Depends if you have any kind of item wear and tear rules, items may break or wear out ::** Again depending on if you have any kind of reclaimation rules and whether they can be scrapped and raw materials reclaimed ::I do belive that any system that is put in place would of course need human intervention and monitoring. While it would be possible to create some kind of simulation or model a system in a way to try and balance the economy, there will always be factors which any computerized system would not be able to compensate for. Thus allowing moderators the ability to "tweek" the system where it is needed would provide enough support to ensure things are working correctly. We are of course talking about Persistent Worlds here, not just your garden variety multi-player module. As a result I think that it needs to exist more "outside" the server itself than actually within the NWN engine. The scripting language and server itself simply does not provide the right tools or capabilities to even begin to model this kind of thing. For me this means using NWNX and its wonderful API interface to both connect to a database (which is where the economy really exists), and to a simulator which is used to control the general income/outgoing of the system from an NPC perspective. Just as it is possible to play games like Civilization where the player balances the economy via personal control, I think the economy could be kept in balance in a similar kind of way. Enigmatic 09:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Economic System OF WHAT? Is NWN2Wiki supposed to be so obsessively focused on PW play that articles like this are not marked as being PW-specific anywhere except for the category tag at the very bottom? - @Frankie 12:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC) : You're both right (and not). It would be best if I had given it the name "Economic system of a PW" or similar. On the other hand, the only way to access this page is through the "PW admin category", (except for the link system with the top content, newly changed and similar that breaks the category system of this wiki), so I could argue about taking this article out of centext. The PW admin category is it's own category with it's own articles, and not all of them are titled to be PW specific. This being said, I have nothing against changing the subject (I even tried to), but I haven't figured out how to do it. Memengwa 12:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC) Sigh, Ugg, Yeah As this really is a rant on MMORPGs and practically nothing to do with NWN, I see no point in this... but a few words of disdain. A) "Expectation of Reward" is not a valid argument against simulated market... it is solely proof that you're catering to idiots, an likely have little knowledge of what you're talking about in the first place. Lets say we have a "Quest", "School Janitor", and many people do this "Quest." As more people do this quest the value of the quest goes down, and hence leads to more lucrative "Quests" of "Corporate Janitor." B) A newbie can farm 1 spider every 1 min. A high level character (or low level twink) can wipe the entire field every 5 min. Which person farms more silk and makes the newbies angry because they have nothing to "farm"? C) As for "item decay," typical idiot response here. "I want an economy that is fair and balanced AND I don't want to give anything up to have it... except for small commodities that don't really matter what happens to them." C. on topic) Point is, allowing items to degrade in quality with NO REVERSABLE PROCEEDURES, creates a market for even low level items. But it has to be completely "unfair" (a.k.a. reality) to work. Mages would very rarely get hit meaning any 'durability' would remain at full value for long periods of time; hence the "enchantments" will need to degrade over time / use" under ALL conditions. C. Ranting on) Furthermore, the "better the gear" the faster it wears out (hence why low level items would still have a market). Keeping the best gear means it has to continuously be crafted / farmed which hence creates an economy of USE instead of 'junk in my pack'. Making the items decay even in a state of non-use would further destroy the whole "Hoarders" and even FIX the "Limited Resources" bid. D) Relying on the Devs to fix the market is a bad idea. A large portion of this seems to believe that shifting the blame on the "devs" for the poor economy and expecting them to do something about it is the solution. In the real world, expecting the government to fix all your problems is ludicrious. E) Players are the Problem. The only way to fix the economy is to stop pandering idiots. If you could carry only 5 items and had no bags, no "portals", no "sell bots" or any nonsense... the "npc-economy" (gold generation) would be bloody tough... enterying the market should be hard as hell, GAINING anything even harder. The problem is that the rewards are insane and PLAYERS WANT IT. Dumb people, not understanding that the smaller the profit the more stable the economy becomes. E-w/e) I mean, the point is simple. You CANNOT have an easy to get into economy and expect people to NOT take advantage of it which then leads to it being completely destroyed after a few months. The harder it is to get into the economy, the better the economy will be 1 year from now... With everone expecting to get rich, everyone stays poor. beh. 09:04, December 16, 2013 (UTC)